Author/editor Dave Zimmer has been covering the music and lives of
the guys in CSNY for more than 25 years, writing countless articles,
authoring Crosby, Stills & Nash: The Authorized Biography (with
photography by Henry Diltz) (First edition: St. Martin's Press; Updated
edition: Da Capo Press) and editing 4 Way Street: The Crosby, Stills,
Nash & Young Reader (Da Capo Press).
4 Way Street includes more than 30 classic pieces of journalism on CSNY,
from group portraits and individual profiles to in-depth interviews and
incisive commentary, by such writers as Cameron Crowe, Ben Fong-Torres,
David Crosby, Joel Selvin, Ellen Sander, Roy Carr, Peter Knobler, Penny
Valentine, Lenny Kaye, Vicki Wickham and Dave Zimmer himself.
Spanning more than three decades, 4 Way Street is an open window into
the world of CSNY, offering fascinating looks at the group's highly
charged musical relationships and how they have changed over the years,
along the way revealing a colorful chronicle of the musicians' timeless
music.
Dave was in the attic of his New Jersey home when interviewer Tony
Bittick called.
TONY BITTICK: Greetings, this is Tony Bittick. On
behalf of crosbycpr.com, I'd like to welcome this afternoon my guest to
our interview: the renowned author of the Crosby, Stills & Nash
Biography and a newly released book, 4 Way Street: The Crosby, Stills,
Nash & Young Reader, Mr. Dave Zimmer.
Dave, how are ya?
DAVE ZIMMER: Very good, Tony. It's always good talking to you.
TB: Well, I appreciate you taking the time out to
talk about your book a little bit. I know that, like most of us these
days, you're very busy. You know, there's so much to talk about. Let's
just sort of get at it. Tell me about the genesis of this book. I'd have
thought that after the first one you might have had enough.
DZ: Well, during the process that resulted in the Crosby, Stills
& Nash Biography, which I wrote in the early ‘80s, then updated in the
late ‘90s, I'd collected all of these magazine articles, parts of books,
taped interviews, etc. that had been sitting in plastic tubs in my attic
here in West Orange, New Jersey amidst family photographs, baseball
memorabilia and things like that. And it had always been my dream to
collect the best of these pieces into a book, because I felt they were
captured moments in time where the artists reflected on what was going
on in their lives at a particular moment as it was happening rather than
20 years past.
Often, as you know, things are colored by the passage of time, whereas
if something is talked about while it's literally happening right at
that moment or the recent past, meaning a week or two, or a month or
two, it's a totally different feeling. And some of these great pieces,
that I'd sort of earmarked over the years by such writers as Ben
Fong-Torres, Cameron Crowe, Peter Knobler, Ellen Sander – who wrote this
great book, Trips: Rock Life in the Sixties, in the early ‘70s, based on
some of her Hit Parader interviews in the late ‘60s ... these just sort
of sat there wanting to be collected. And, frankly, it got to the point
where I felt that if I didn't do it, it wasn't going to get done.
Fortunately enough, in the fall of 2002, I met with Ben Schafer, who is
Senior Editor at Da Capo Press, and sort of laid out this idea to him
and he went for it. So from that point on, I went through these tubs and
pulled out all these articles and at the same time got some great
assistance from Paul Higham, a friend in the UK, also Dolf, who is the
web master of 4waysite.com, and Lorraine, who has a site,
www.suitelorraine.com. All these articles were sort of out there, but
they'd never been collected. So through a process of really looking at
the pieces and collecting them and threading them together into a
cohesive whole, the book then came to be.
TB: Dave, was there a point when this project went
from "feels like a neat idea" to ... "you know what, I'm going to
dedicate a year or two of my life and actually make this happen."
DZ: (Laughs) Well, I wish I'd had that much time. Essentially, I
had about six months to put it together ...
TB: Wow.
DZ: ...and I'm taking about from the initial collection of the
pieces and editing down to ... after they were earmarked, I went through
and wrote some intros to them and contacted the writers to make sure
they were OK with them being used. So I didn't have that much time. And
all the while I was working a full-time job. So ... I dedicated moments
of time, pockets of time, each day to this project. And thankfully it
got done.
TB: That leads into a great question that was
asked today by Dean "Doc" Dunn, who is the list operator for The Lee
Shore ..
DZ: Yep.
TB: "Doc" asked if I would ask you ... what was
the process like for you trying to mix the writing of this book and the
compiling of these articles with your daily job and your family life?
DZ: Sometimes I must admit it was a little difficult, because I
have a 10-year-old son, Casey, who is a great kid, and a wonderful wife,
Claudia. And at some points I felt that perhaps I was devoting too much
time to this project and not enough time to them. And ... it got to the
point where I had to set this project aside in order to be a better dad
and a better husband. I still ... they were helpful in allowing me the
time to do it ... and understanding about the process I needed to go
through in order to write this book. Even though it was essentially
editing, it also involved a lot of writing, because I also had to do the
intro, write the intros to the pieces, and really get to the heart of
what it took to get these pieces together. So it was a time consuming
process. And thankfully both my wife and son, and our little dog, were
very understanding.
TB: Is it fair to describe the book as a
retrospective of the band?
DZ: What I hope it stands for is sort of a chronicle of not only
the band but of the times that they were really on the cutting edge of
... from the late ‘60s through 2002. Because the last pieces in the book
essentially were written and published during the Tour of America, which
is the last Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young tour, which happened in the
wake of the September 11th tragedies. So as the pieces were sort of put
together in a certain order and capturing certain moments in time, I
really wanted to make sure that there was no era that really was
ignored. That said, I used The Mothership, the CSNY group, as the thread
that connected all of the pieces. Even though there are some solo and
duo and trio pieces in the book, it's really sort of the looming
presence of CSNY that threads all of the pieces together, hopefully. And
even if someone is not a fanatic, a student of the group, hopefully they
can get a clear sense of the development and the evolution of the band
by going through this collection.
TB: That's very interesting to hear you describe
it that way. I recall the first time that I read the [Crosby, Stills &
Nash] Biography, which was before you and I had had a chance to meet, I
remember thinking how evenhanded the book seemed to be, in light of the
somewhat tumultuous history of Crosby, Stills & Nash ... and I've heard
several people say ... Since then, even after re-reading the book, with
a little different spin, knowing you now, that I have to say, it's a
really well-crafted piece of writing ... the way that you tie it all in,
without showing any kind of partiality whatsoever. With that in mind, I
really looked at this new book to kind of look at the craft. And the
analogy I kept coming back to ... and I don't know, and I wonder if
you've thought of it in these terms, but this book reads to me very much
like a musician would write a song. For some musicians, it just comes.
Crosby talks often about how it just comes in the middle of the night
and he has to roll over and write the song down. Some musicians are real
concerned about writing the chorus and the bridge, you know. And the
more I read of this book, the more I felt it was like participating with
a musician writing a song.
DZ: I'm really happy that that came across, because as I was
pulling the various pieces together, it really did feel like it was a
jigsaw puzzle or a composition that required sort of a delicate balance.
And I was very careful to try to keep a voice going, a consistent thread
that really would provide not only an evenhanded look at the group but a
balanced look. Because all four of the personalities are very strong and
very outspoken in their own way. And I wanted to make sure that all four
of their voices were presented equally throughout. Even though, frankly,
Neil's voice, even though it's strong, it's not always there, because
over the course of the life of CSNY, his participation in the entity has
often driven whether or not they get together or not. So I think that
comes out in the pieces even when he's not there ... when the guys are
talking about why he's not there or when he's coming back again. And
that occurs either when it's CSN or C&N or whether they're on their
various solo trips.
So I tried to capture as best I could just how the group was covered by
a lot of gifted, gifted writers. And I just want to say that I feel
truly honored to be able to present the level of writing that is in this
book by, and I mentioned some before, by Cameron Crowe and Ben
Fong-Torres, Joel Selvin, and Viki Wickham, and Roy Carr, and ... I
could go on and on ... Gary Graff ... both young and old writers ...
from the halcyon days of the late ‘60s through their reunions ... it was
really ... again, just ... I felt like a curator who was pulling
together what I felt were the jewels that were out there, of the
writings on this group. And, as best I could, I wanted to present them
in a way where it would feel like a fluid tale.
TB: Well, as you do so often, you've led me to a
question I was going to ask later ...
DZ: Yeah.
TB: ...Why you? The list of authors that you've
discussed and who've written about this band ... I find it intriguing
that years ago your biography ... it's not the only one ... but it's
pretty much the only one. There are a couple of other books out there,
but there's nothing else like it that is really THE Biography. What was
it inside you that brought you to write the Biography, and then follow
it up with this book?
DZ: Well, again, I think it's just a matter of me coming to the
realization that ... I was first a devoted fan of the music initially.
When I was in college and 19 years old and really not that comfortable
with where I was or who I was ... all those kinds of feelings of anxiety
before you really kind of find your way. Then the music of Stephen
Stills sort of came out of the sky like a lightening bolt, there was a
feeling of comfort that I got from a lot of his songs ... and just who I
perceived him to be. Even though I'd never met the man, I felt like I
had a sense of who he was and who he was talking to and what he was
talking about; and it really got me through some pretty shaky times when
I was 19, 20 years old. Then subsequently I got into the whole group ...
David, Neil and Graham ... all together and in their various solo, duo
and trio trips ... coming at it from a pure music, fan standpoint.
When I became a writer, a professional writer, I had the good fortune to
be able to interview all of them. And when I did, I found that in
getting to know them, both as a journalist and then later as friends, I
felt that I just wanted to sort of convey my sense of them to readers
and fans out there who may not have been as lucky as I have been ... to
get as close to them as I've become. And in doing the Biography, again I
wanted to present their voices in a way that would allow people to gain
insights into them without invading their privacy ... if that makes any
sense. I did not want to put anything in the book that they would feel
uncomfortable ... having someone they didn't know read. That said, I
didn't want to whitewash the story, but I didn't want to focus on areas
of their lives that they may not want out there.
But just looking at their lives and their music, I was continually
fascinated by interviewing them, because they would tell me these great
stories; and immediately, when they would tell them to me, I would want
to tell a friend. So in writing this book ... in some ways it was a
letter to a friend about the group from me ... and also to me. Because
in publishing the first CSN book, it was like I was able to capture for
all-time my sense of the group and their sense of themselves in a way
that would last and hopefully people could revisit as they chose.
After the book was out there [in 1984] and then was fortunately
re-published [in 2000], I still felt there were parts of the story that
really hadn't been told. That said, Johnny Rogan put together some great
writings on the group. Francesco Luccarelli and his friends put together
the Crosby, Stills, Nash and sometimes Young books. Even with those out
there, it still felt like there was something missing. To have the
opportunity to go back in time and pull together all of these writings
that were not presented collectively ... and my friend Scott Oxman, who
is director of the CSNY Archives, and who was also invaluable in leading
me back to some of these pieces that I, for whatever reason, had not
saved or collected ... it felt like I was following a direction that was
already sort of out there. And I was just pulling it all together and
collecting it, again, not only for me, but for friends and fans out
there who felt about the group as strongly as I do.
TB: I have this vision of you sitting in this
large shag carpeted living room ...
DZ: (Laughs)
TB: ... in your boxer shorts or sweat pants, just
surrounded by these plastic tubs of CSNY paraphernalia, if I can use
that word ...
DZ: That's probably not that far from the reality at some point
...
TB: Can you tell us little bit about the
dissemination process? I mean, was there a rating system? I can't even
fathom what it had to have been like.
DZ: I would find it difficult to say that I rated the pieces. I
really went with how they moved me emotionally and how they really
represented the guys and the group.
As the project sort of began to get its own legs as a real book, it
became clear that the opening piece was going to be this Ellen Sander
... an excerpt from the Ellen Sander book, which begins in Laurel
Canyon. You really get a sense of the time, a sense of the musicians,
and a sense of how the group evolved. After that, it was like I wanted
to keep it chronological but at the same time I didn't feel like I was
necessarily compelled to just use everything that was out there. In
fact, I couldn't; otherwise, the book would have been 800 pages long.
TB: There would have been no problem with that
(laughs)
DZ: Well (laughs) ... it wouldn't have been any problem from my
standpoint, but I think it would have become ... I don't know ... like I
said earlier ... I did not want to put too much weight on any one or two
or three eras. And I think, in keeping that in mind, as I was going
through it, I felt that it was important to give each era its due
without lingering too long during one stretch. So that really did, in
and of itself, direct some of the selections.
But there were some prime pieces [left out] by people such as ... Steve
Silberman had this great, long David Crosby interview, which came out in
Goldmine in the mid ‘90s; but very little of the interview dealt with
CSNY, even though it was very fascinating. It almost felt like it was a
standalone piece that could not somehow fit into the flow of the book.
And also, there was a David Fricke CSNY article, which came out in 2000
... and even though there was a lot of great stuff in there, adding that
to the book, it just threw ... it would have thrown the balance out of
whack.
So, I don't know ... it was a very delicate process ... trying just to
keep everything covered ... all the bases covered ... while still having
it feel like a real book, not just a collection of disparate pieces.
TB: Now the book came out in February of this
year?
DZ: Yes.
TB: How can people get this? Before I forget ...
DZ: Well, it's available wherever books are sold ... or it should
be, anyway ... if Da Capo is doing their job. Online, there's Amazon.com
... Barnes & Noble, Borders ... I don't need to rattle off all the
booksellers. But it should be widely available ... in the U.S., Canada,
the U.K. and, I think, other parts of the world; either via booksellers
physically or online ... like in Japan and other parts of the world.
TB: Have you had any sense of how the book's been
received?
DZ: Most of the people who have responded to me, either by e-mail
or in-person, have enjoyed it. They felt that it was ... and I'm glad
that this was picked up on ... that it was lovingly put together. I'm
glad that that came through. And that it really presents a colorful and
accurate picture of the group.
But that said, sales have not been fantastic, and I've been told by my
publisher that sometimes anthologies don't do as well as actual
biographies. But really that isn't ... that was never that important to
me, in terms of creating something that would sell as many copies as
possible. Because that was never the motivation from the start, when I
did the first CSN Biography. Because I've always had ... what shall we
say ... a day job.
Frankly, if I had to exist on monies that have trickled in from my
writings about CSNY, my family and I would be living by the side of the
road in a box somewhere.
TB: (Laughs)
DZ: (Laughs) So ... maybe that goes without saying ... but I
think it should be clear that the motivation for doing these projects on
the group has never been about trying to cash in on them as musicians
and me as a writer. It's more ... it's always been about my wanting to
just share how they have impacted my life so greatly. And I can tell
that they've impacted so many other people's lives. [These books] have
just been sort of my gift, frankly, to myself and as to others who feel
the same way about these guys.
TB: I know that, because we've discussed this
previously ... share with us what was the hardest part of putting ... of
finalizing this book, if you will.
DZ: Oh, gosh ... you know, it was making sure that, number one,
all of the writers felt comfortable with it, and all the permissions
were granted. And there were some tense moments in making sure that
everyone was OK with being a part of the book – which they were. But
there were, and I won't name them, some publications where it was touch
and go. But thankfully everything was cleared in time for publication.
But my one regret though, frankly, is that I wish, in hindsight, that I
had acknowledged the backgrounds of all the writers more. Going full
speed and being mindful, with my editor and the publisher wanting me to
keep the length in tow. I still feel like I erred in not providing
insights, at the back of the book, into the illustrious careers of ...
and careers that I have so much high regard for ... all of the writers
that are in the book. I just wish that that information had been in
there and that, frankly, I had ditched the "About the Editor" thing at
the end, which was more an insight into, frankly, my dedication to the
group. If I had to do that portion over again ... the back matter of the
book ... I would have maybe just ditched that all together and just
devoted that to the writers that are in the book.
TB: Oh well ... I'm kind of partial ... I like it
the way it is.
DZ: Well, I'm glad that you do, and hopefully others do.
TB: I'm sure they do, Dave ...
You've told me an interesting story that somebody in the band had to get
involved to kind of help you out a little bit here.
DZ:
There was a publication that wanted to make sure that the
members of the band were fully behind this project. That they were not
sorry that it was happening. So ...
TB: We won't name any names, but it gathers no
moss ...
DZ: Right.
TB: (Laughs) I said it, you didn't.
DZ: The request was ... that I get either a letter or an actual
fax from one of the band members [to the publication]. Actually they
said either David Crosby or Stephen Stills. And I was able to call my
friend David up and thankfully he was able to ... I got him on the phone
... he called me back within just a couple of minutes of me leaving a
voice mail. And I outlined the project ... which I had done previously
in both letter and over the phone ... and I explained the situation. And
even though he was in the middle of a tour, on the road, living in
hotels, and had a million distractions, he took the time to send this
fax. And within three days of receipt of that fax I was given clearance
on all the pieces that are in the book from this publication.
TB: I think that's a great story, and I wanted our listeners to hear
that. Because really, to stop in the middle of all that he was doing and
help out like that ...
DZ: I will never forget that.
TB: Of course, that's pretty typical of David,
too.
DZ: Yeah, and it was just a very magnanimous and wonderful thing
for him to do. And I will always remember that.
TB: Can you pick a favorite piece in the book?
Just one?
DZ: Uh ... boy ... it's (sighs) ... my favorites change from ...
frankly, I must confess I still just pick [the book] up to enjoy the
writings that are in there, because it brings back so many fond
memories. If I had to pick one ... and I could just as easily name six
others or more ... or 20 others ...
TB: No, no ... that's not a part of the game.
(Laughs)
DZ: It probably would be the 1977 interview that was in Rolling
Stone that Cameron Crowe did ... called "The Actual Honest-to-God
Reunion of Crosby, Stills & Nash." It's so well written, and it so
perfectly captures where all of the guys were at the point in their
lives ... and they were making a great album. And it also ... it pulled
together, very magically, their whole history. There's a lot of Neil in
there, too ... Even though he wasn't in the group at that point, Cameron
was able to capture his presence ... and just how he describes the four
of them in the studio ... "To see them all together in one dimly lit
room was an incredible sight, like watching four big old grey timber
wolves circling." It's such a perfect description and immediately
conjures an image that has always been there and nails what these are
guys all about. They're friends, they're musicians, they're powerful
forces. And the way Cameron, in that article, brought it all together,
and then ended it so perfectly. If I had to just pull one piece out,
that would be it.
TB: The last time that we talked for an interview
we discussed the irony that these guys are the age that they are and
still as "out there" as they are. Not only has that not slowed down, but
it would seem that, at least in David Crosby's case, it's picked up
steam. CPR has either just completed a tour or is coming off a tour.
Crosby, Stills & Nash is booked for a pretty full schedule this summer,
and I've heard a couple things ... David Crosby's box set is due out
soon. Crosby-Nash has an album coming out this summer, I believe. And at
least I'm crossing my fingers that there is a tour there.
DZ: That's what we've been told ...
TB: So there should be more writing for you to do,
then.
DZ: I'm not certain there's more writing for me to do,
necessarily, but there certainly is room for further connection with the
group and perhaps some writing. But in some ways I looked at this 4 Way
Street book as a little bit of ... like a coda ... like a connecting of
the circle, in terms of my intense connection as a journalist and as a
fan. Even though there's ... and I'm thrilled that all of these guys
continue to create projects that are as vital, in some ways, as anything
they've ever done. Just as a journalist and as a chronicler of their
careers, I don't feel as compelled as I once did to get it all down, as
it were. I think certainly there is going to be ... there obviously are
others who are doing that ... and frankly the beauty of our online
situation, with Dolf and Lorraine and Stephen Barncard's wonderful site,
www.crosby.cpr.com, people stay connected in the moment with what these
guys are doing. But me personally? I don't know. I guess it's time for
me to take a little bit of a rest and become more of a full-time father
and husband.
TB: I've always thought that the irony of being a
part of a band or even being a famous personality ... you never get a
chance to view your work the way other people do. And, quite frankly, I
think that, in some small regard, Dave, you fall into that; because, the
truth is, for the rest of us that are fans, you are a part of the
Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young story. Because their story would not be the
same had you not been there to help tell it to us. And I thank you for
that, and I know the fans around the world do as well.
DZ:
Well, those are very kind words and I appreciate that
feeling. And even though I'm not certain I agree with it fully, just the
fact that you feel that way means a great deal to me.
TB: The name of the book is 4 Way Street: The Crosby, Stills, Nash &
Young Reader, you can buy it at a bookstore close to you or Amazon.com.
Dave Zimmer, I am thrilled to have spent some time with you again. Thank
you very much. God bless ...
DZ: You as well, Tony.
TB: ... and we'll talk to you soon.
DZ: It's always great to speak with you.
